Architects of Change: Building the Ultimate Change Team ft. Sam Hilgendorf
Well, good morning, everybody. Good morning. Good morning. So we're gonna be talking about change, talking about building change teams. So can anybody recognize what I'm dressed up like?
Sam Hilgendorf:Who's who's all watched Ted Lasso? Yeah. Alright. Most of the room. Fantastic.
Sam Hilgendorf:Oh, you guys be very familiar with with a lot of the content, of course, today because I tell you, you know, there's that old poster from, like, you know, grade school where it's like everything I learned I needed that was in kindergarten. I swear everything I've learned regarding the leadership, I've learned from Ted Lasso. It is just such a phenomenal, phenomenal show. So as we as we talk about change and building out change teams, I'm gonna use that, you know, basically as kind of the the the centering of the discussion. So with that, a little bit about me.
Sam Hilgendorf:So I'm the the head coach of our technology organization at Fox World Travel. Fox has been around since 1960, privately held, third generation owner, so 65 years young. We do about 700,000,000 a year in annual sales, mostly around corporate travel management. So if you guys are traveling for your organizations, your organizations have a responsibility to you as a traveler to make sure you're taken care of, that if anything happens to you, we have a service that we call duty of care that that company, you know, again, knows where you're at, knows how to you know, what to do to get you out, etcetera. You know, we manage all those disruption things.
Sam Hilgendorf:I don't think that's for me. Quick decline that. Hopefully, that's not important. So yeah. That's it's overall what what Fox does.
Sam Hilgendorf:So me as the CIO, I get to base I joke, pretty much if it runs on power, somehow I own it. So been with Fox for about seven years. Prior to that, actually about twenty years of of IT consulting experience. Vast majority of my time, spent with CDW. For those that are either have less hair than I do or grayer than I am, you may be familiar with Burby Information Networks out of Madison.
Sam Hilgendorf:I was, an early member of the Burby team. I was part of the acquisition to, CDW and was there till about 2008, or so. Oh, no. Sorry. 2016.
Sam Hilgendorf:Left and joined an organization called OneNeck, headquartered out of Mass and owned by TDS. And then since, joined the dark side, flipped over to the the CIO role. And, you know, thinking about as we were talking about a little bit earlier, you know, the you know, who wants to be a CIO in the room? May I tell you ten years ago, I would have said no way in hell do I ever wanna be a CIO. CIO stood for career is over.
Sam Hilgendorf:It's still better than c CISOs. You know, career is seriously over. But but here I am seven years later, and honestly, I've been loving it. I've been loving the travel industry, loving kind of what I get to do, you know, building out new infrastructure, new solutions, AI, all the fun things with that. But today, we're really gonna talk about, change management.
Sam Hilgendorf:So, again, Ted Lasso was a fan of this show. And really, as I think about team building, he's got some great, great examples of how to assemble the right team and what you can do once you get that that team assembled appropriately. So we're gonna start with, you know, change is hard. We all know that, but often it's worth it. So we're gonna start with a clip here.
Sam Hilgendorf:Hopefully, the audio works.
TV Clip:The referee looks at his watch, and that's halftime. What kind of reception awaits Lasso in his locker room?
TV Clip:Hey. Sit down. Listen.
TV Clip:Got ourselves a tied game. Nice work. Fellas, we're broken. We need to change. And look, I know change can be scary.
TV Clip:One minute, you're playing freeze tag, out there at recess with all your buddies. Next thing you know, you're getting zits, your voice gets low, and every time your art teacher, miss Scanlon, leans over your desk to check and see how your project's going, you feel all squiggly inside. She was a striking woman. Not classically beautiful, but striking. First time I ever saw tan lines.
TV Clip:Most of the time, change is a good thing. I think that's what it's all about. Embracing change, being brave, doing whatever you have to so that everyone in your life can move forward with theirs.
Sam Hilgendorf:And that's what really it's about. I mean, change is about trying to bring something better. And we all know it's a pain in the ass to get there, but that's really what the work is. So we think about change. We think about all the steps that require a a successful change to come in.
Sam Hilgendorf:I'm gonna break it down to kinda four specific areas because it'll tie back to that team building a a bit as we get into it. But, you know, step one, initiation. You gotta have somebody that has that vision, that that has the strategy that says, alright. Here's what we're doing. Here's the why behind, what we're doing.
Sam Hilgendorf:They're the ones setting the direction, getting folks kind of excited about, you know, the potential that's out there. Then now now it's about getting commitment. You know, getting the the folks aligned with it, getting them to see the what's in it for me's. You know, all the challenges, we're trying to get folks together and share you know, feeling that shared destiny, around that change. And that's a pretty big part of change management is getting that early done because chain a lot of change fails because you didn't have that step done at the first place.
Sam Hilgendorf:Number three, planning. Of course, you know, the spreadsheets, the project plans, the details, all the things that we need to get done in the thinking our or, you know, looking around the corners. I've got a pet peeve of mine that I've talked about with project managers for years. And on how project managers are created equal. And the project managers that drove me nuts were the ones that would say were document ing the train wreck.
Sam Hilgendorf:Not planning around the incident, but just documenting it. So risk management, thinking about what's the risk around the corner that we haven't addressed yet, all comes into that planning stage. And then finally, execution. The fun part. The actual well, to me, the fun part, but you'll understand why in a little bit.
Sam Hilgendorf:The doing of the stuff, actually getting those those steps going, starting to drive momentum, getting past that trough of disillusionment into, you know, that kind of success. So those four stages, as soon as you're missing one one of those four, there's a good chance that change is gonna fail. So keep those in mind because we're gonna come back to them. But now let's talk about the greyhounds a little bit. Let's meet the meet the team because the team is really what's gonna happen, know, what's gonna make that change effective or not.
TV Clip:And so it sticks. The gaffer, me, is going out to the pitch Yep. The grass here to watch practice.
TV Clip:Training. They call practice training.
TV Clip:Oh, it's vernacular.
TV Clip:It won't
Sam Hilgendorf:be tough. You know what?
TV Clip:I'm gonna get it though because training makes perfect.
TV Clip:There you go. Oh, there's our man. Come on, boy. You're marking the man. Jesus, Mary, and fuck face Joseph.
TV Clip:Eyes on the man you're marching. Come on. Who is that? Roy Kent, team captain, classic old school box to box midfielder. Definitely lost his step.
TV Clip:But, you know, he's a legend. Won a champions league with Chelsea. So Eight years ago.
TV Clip:Yeah.
TV Clip:Oh, God. What?
TV Clip:That is a darn fine sports mix, young fella. Coach, you try this? That does not come lightly from that fella. I'll tell you that. You continue to impress, Nathan.
TV Clip:You remember the name? Holy smokes. Did you see that? That fella looked like a kitty cat when he gets spooked by a cucumber. Who the heck is that?
TV Clip:Jamie Tarte, top scorer on the team? Fuck off.
TV Clip:Nate, what's he like?
TV Clip:Well, Jamie? Mhmm. Yeah. He's great. You know football.
TV Clip:Yeah. I know fellas like that. Samuel Bisanya, right back up the fender out of the Nigerian league. Nigeria? Like Africa?
TV Clip:So these fellas are from all
TV Clip:over the place?
Sam Hilgendorf:Alright. So we got Roy and we got Jamie and we got Sam. It's all, members of the team, and they're all gonna bring very different things to this team, as it kinda gets built out. So with that, I'm gonna talk a little bit about disc. Who's familiar with disc?
Sam Hilgendorf:Alright. Most of the room. Fantastic. Because I tell you, we're gonna tie those exact players to some these disc profiles, the good and the bad. What they need, how they shine, and quite frankly, when left unchecked, what can happen.
Sam Hilgendorf:So with disc, you know, we got four quadrants. The upper side is really about kind of outgoing, a little bit more extraversion. Bottom side is about kind of a little bit more introversion, reservedness, things like that. The left side is really task oriented. I wanna get this done, and my value is by how many things I get done versus the people side, which is all gonna be about the relationships and the feels and the emotions and all of those types of things.
Sam Hilgendorf:So we're gonna start with, with the d, our dominant trait. So when we think about the greyhounds, our d is is gonna be Jamie Tartt. And I I keep going back to click the little button.
TV Clip:Thank you.
TV Clip:Hey, Jamie. What would you rather be? A lion or a panda?
TV Clip:Coach, I'm me. Why would I want to be anything else? I'm not
TV Clip:sure you realize how psychologically healthy that actually is. Cheers.
Sam Hilgendorf:Night court. Wow.
TV Clip:Align. Definitely alive.
Sam Hilgendorf:So with Jamie, you definitely see that you know what? Really assure himself. Confidence. You know, with some of the qualities of a d that really are important, again, from driving change, you've gotta have somebody that's gonna gonna put themselves out there. Now fortunately, with these, you know, they're they're while they're willing to take the risks, they got the goals in mind, you know, they can create that momentum, well, they need some controls.
Sam Hilgendorf:These kind of out of their, you know, without any kind of control around well, can create a fair amount of chaos. Moving too fast, you know, not waiting for others to follow, not necessarily sticking to a plan because they may know better. Their their confidence can exude them. So, you know, some examples of how, you know, a d needs some of that that control back.
TV Clip:Excuse me, mate. Check on your teammate.
TV Clip:The captain dispensing some wisdom to the young superstar. Nothing wrong with that. Sam?
TV Clip:Yeah? Not to move you there.
TV Clip:Who is this? Pinton. You
Sam Hilgendorf:Yeah. Wouldn't believe how many bosses I've had give me that look exactly. I've I've got a fair amount of d in me, and the the ability to create chaos, has definitely been a skill of my, of my career. And that's a very familiar familiar look for me. So, again, d's, while they can do a lot of that driving, they need they need some help if they if they get too far too fast ahead.
Sam Hilgendorf:So keep that in mind. Next, we are gonna flip over, and we're gonna hit our eyes next. So, again, these are gonna be very much that outgoing, that, a bit more a style behavior, but they're gonna be a lot more focused on people than than the tasks. So we're gonna introduce you to Danny Rojas. And well, this one's actually got subtitles so that the audio doesn't come through that loud, so we'll be
TV Clip:able to
TV Clip:follow along.
TV Clip:Kidding. What it? Danny what? Roxas. Roxas.
TV Clip:Roxas. Yeah. Is he any good? Came here in the summer transfer window, was immediately injured, so no one's really seen him play. That's okay.
TV Clip:No. I you know, because once Jamie sees someone else playing this position, you know, man, it's gonna hurt his soul. So I'm so sorry. I shouldn't
TV Clip:be happy about that. I'm
TV Clip:Okay. Let's be sure to help Danny get acclimated. Alright?
TV Clip:First time
TV Clip:in this league could be very overwhelming. Hey. Hello, coaches. Thank you for the opportunity.
TV Clip:You are a spirited fella, Danny. Just going out there and you get distracted spot for us.
TV Clip:Just like back in Guadalajara, you say I do it, coach. Football is alive. Oh, a long game. Jamie doesn't. Chippy dickheads like, I'll actually never back it up from a pitch.
TV Clip:Bitch.
Sam Hilgendorf:Alright. So lot of energy. Got a lot of people excited. Know? Can cause havoc studies.
Sam Hilgendorf:Drive them nuts because it's about the emotion. It's about the roller coaster. The the good and the bad as opposed to tasks. It's about people. So again, those eyes, you know, they they love that excitement for the change.
Sam Hilgendorf:They love the initiation part of change. They wanna talk about the change. All the things that can kinda come from it. They're oftentimes are early adopters. They're the ones that are excited about it.
Sam Hilgendorf:But they have some specific needs. And again, once just like the d's, you know, if they're unchecked, their their issues happens with eyes too. They need that that excitement. They need to be heard. Well, they also, again, ride that roller coaster.
Sam Hilgendorf:The fun part about roller coasters is not necessarily the way up, it's the way down. And when they crash, they can crash pretty hard. So again, here's another clip to show a little bit of that example.
TV Clip:And it's deja vu all over again as Danny Rojas has another injury time penalty kick to put Richmond in the wing column for the first time this season. If he can get it past this adorable goalkeeper. Oh, gamesmanship from the keeper. How will Rojas respond?
Sam Hilgendorf:So they can ride the extremes big time. From one day being excited to the next, this is all awful. And and, again, that roller coaster, they need to have some support to pull them back from that to be a a great team member. Alright. Next, we'll hit the, the s's.
Sam Hilgendorf:So our our s's, it's gonna be, our buddy Sam, from that that opening up episode.
TV Clip:What are doing? What? Dubai Air not paying you enough?
TV Clip:No. No. Dubai Air is owned by a horrible company. One that has turned the Southern Coast of Nigeria, my home, into a hellish fiery swamp. I can no longer wear their name on my chest.
TV Clip:Never again.
TV Clip:Give me your table.
TV Clip:Good. That's good.
TV Clip:Hey. Listen. I'd not expect you all to do this, but I hope you understand why we as Nigerians must.
TV Clip:Want me to tape?
TV Clip:What do you think you're doing?
TV Clip:Retainment, man. Gotta wear the same kit.
Sam Hilgendorf:Alright. So, yeah, our s's. They're the community builders. They're gonna be the ones bringing everybody together. Shared goal, shared destiny.
Sam Hilgendorf:They want that inclusion from across all different styles, all different team members, etcetera. This is, again, especially with technology projects, this is a place that I see us dropping the ball the most. We don't a whole lot of technologists that, I would say, fall into the s side of things, that often. A lot of d's, a of a lot of c's. But this is one that, man, when you've got that s as part of that team that can help bring others along, it, again, effectively helps that change go through.
Sam Hilgendorf:But also, they need support, and they need help because left unchecked, this is kinda what you get.
TV Clip:So we'll get some flowers, because this spot here is where Sam died. It's very sad. Oi, walk away, you little prick. Alright, granddad. Keep your wig on.
TV Clip:Thanks, Roy.
TV Clip:No, you're good.
TV Clip:Hey, Sam.
TV Clip:Come here
TV Clip:a sec.
TV Clip:Coach, I'm I'm sorry.
TV Clip:You know
TV Clip:what the happiest animal on Earth is? It's a goldfish. You know why? No. Got a ten second memory.
TV Clip:Be a goldfish, Sam. Yeah? Yeah. You got it.
Sam Hilgendorf:Go ahead. So our s's, when they get down, largely they disappear. They need the reassurance. They need somebody to kinda say, it will be okay. We can get through this.
Sam Hilgendorf:You know, the the introversion combined to, again, that that focus on the emotion, they can, like, well, like I said, disappear on you. So you gotta really take care of those s's, make sure that they're both feeling feel feeling like they're being heard and that there's some of that good tension to push them forward. Because otherwise, they'll they'll resist the most when it comes to status quo is okay. Alright. Last, last one here.
Sam Hilgendorf:RCs, which is probably the most common distyle in technology. You know, it's a lot of data that we deal with, a lot of tools, a lot of structure behind the work that we do. So we have a lot, a lot of Cs. Now we're gonna flip flip the script a little bit. We're gonna start with what the Cs need more before kinda what what they can bring to the table.
TV Clip:Richmond Arsenal match. Welcome, Grace. But today was another tough day for Roy Kent in a stretch of bad days. In his last nine games,
TV Clip:Kane's his losses.
TV Clip:His turnovers have nearly doubled. And today, it was an ignominious over time.
TV Clip:There you are. Everyone gone?
TV Clip:Yes, sir. Except Rojas. Darn kids out on the practice pitch still doing drills.
TV Clip:What a fucking answer.
TV Clip:Right? Somebody order a Roy on the Rocks, How are doing? Whoo. That is cold, man. Looking at you in there
TV Clip:and making me all chilly inside.
TV Clip:Can you just tell me I fucked up and then go?
TV Clip:Not gonna do that, bud.
TV Clip:I lost just the game. I'm a piece of shit. Easy now.
TV Clip:You had a bad day. Big whoop.
Sam Hilgendorf:Big whoop?
TV Clip:Yeah. Big whoop. You beating yourself up is
TV Clip:like Woody Allen playing the clarinet. I don't wanna hear it. Alright? So just, you know, knock it off. Go easy on yourself.
TV Clip:Okay?
TV Clip:Hey. I got your back. Ain't nothing gonna change that. Look at you in there, looking like a brunette Oscar the grouch. On or off?
Sam Hilgendorf:And that's pretty much every c versus I interaction I've ever seen in my life. Alright. So with the c's, I mean, again, they are analytical folks. They are folks that wanna be very systematic in their approach. They catch the issues before they become issues, which is, again, huge from a change management perspective.
Sam Hilgendorf:However, you know, again, left unchecked, you start running into perfectionism. And, alright, we can't make a move until this is done and this is done. I need this from this team and this team. It's like, but the business needs this tomorrow. What can we do?
Sam Hilgendorf:What what can we do to get it done? That's a that's a question CS don't necessarily like answering. So they need that pressure from the the other side to kinda pull them out and be able to be more willing to take some risks, you know, with the help of the rest of the team. Alright. The positive what Cs can bring to the table for for project teams.
TV Clip:You fucking asshole.
Sam Hilgendorf:There's a start.
TV Clip:I know you are, but so
Sam Hilgendorf:are you.
TV Clip:I'm trying
TV Clip:to build bridges here. You couldn't fucking build Jeff Bridges.
Sam Hilgendorf:Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. What's going on?
TV Clip:What's wrong? This man refuses to coach me. He refuses to stop being an asshole.
TV Clip:Okay. Roy, you're not gonna like this, but right now Jamie here is being the mature one.
TV Clip:It's true I'm being super mature, you big dumb hairy baby twat. He just wants to learn from you. If you know how to make me better, I wanna hear it. See?
TV Clip:Fine. I'll tell you what's wrong with
TV Clip:you. Alright now, here we go.
TV Clip:You fucked him up.
TV Clip:Woah. Okay. Expound.
TV Clip:You've made him a team player. You've got him to pass and shit. And in doing so, you've made him average. Because Jamie, deep down at your core, you are a prick. So just be a prick.
TV Clip:We need you to score more goals, and we need you to get in the other team's fucking heads and drive them up the fucking wall like only you can fucking do.
TV Clip:So I can go back to being a prick?
TV Clip:No. I'm saying sometimes, When it
TV Clip:is
TV Clip:appropriate, yes, be a prick.
TV Clip:Okay. How will they know when? Makes you curious about that myself
TV Clip:too. We'll give you a signal.
TV Clip:What signal? Any specifics we need to look out for?
TV Clip:You'll know when you see it. That's good. Alright.
Sam Hilgendorf:So I so I love that seat for a variety of different ways. It it it is how Cs can control Ds. It is pretty much laying it out there. Here's the facts. Here's the data.
Sam Hilgendorf:Here's the pieces of the puzzle that you're not thinking about because you're halfway down the freaking block at the next step of the the project phase. So the c's are a wonderful component to a team to, again, well, keep balloons of the i's and the d's, you know, a little bit more grounded. So when you start getting in this all together and you start seeing the team in action, this is where the magic comes together. So again, next next scene and then I'll tie it all up.
TV Clip:Yeah.
TV Clip:You got something you want to say, James?
TV Clip:I mean, yeah, but Right. Let us have it. Well, I don't want people to think I'm being a prick, but say it. Okay. Well done.
TV Clip:I ain't doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. Woah. Woah. I mean I mean no.
TV Clip:I mean, I think we're all doing it wrong. If we want this to work, you gotta stop going to me and start playing through me. You get me? Look. Just look.
TV Clip:Look. Can I do you mind if I Yeah? Of course. Alright. Alright.
TV Clip:So look, I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be playing forward. I should be here in the center. I should be here. Alright.
TV Clip:Let Danny go up front. Move Colin over there. Richard there. So stop going to me. Right?
TV Clip:And start going through me. Alright? That's total football.
TV Clip:How's that sound to y'all?
Sam Hilgendorf:Yeah. I gotcha. I
TV Clip:should do
Sam Hilgendorf:it too. And
TV Clip:there it is. Sacrifice, putting aside personal glory on behalf of the team. Oh.
TV Clip:I like that, but that ain't number four.
TV Clip:Let's bring it in. Come on.
TV Clip:Number four on three.
TV Clip:One two three four.
TV Clip:The Greyhound still three nil down in the second half. They need something, and they need it soon. Arsenal's cross. Easy
TV Clip:for Van Dam, and Van Dam out to Yan Mars.
TV Clip:Here we go.
TV Clip:Here's Dixon infield to Tart. Tart to Wabesanya. Over to Hughes. Tart again. Tuttakadou in the midfield.
TV Clip:Over to Rojas. Rojas drops it back
TV Clip:to Tarte who sends a long ball down to Bumba Catch. Bumba Catch to Goodman. Goodman over to Tarte in the box. Altar with the back heel. And Bonsor is there
TV Clip:to hammer it in.
TV Clip:That was bloody gorgeous. A majestic sweeping symphony of a goal with Tarte in the role of
TV Clip:conductor. Alright. Alright.
Sam Hilgendorf:That's it, mate. Here we go.
TV Clip:Here we go. Whoo.
TV Clip:Arsenal prevails three one, but for the first time in weeks, the Greyhounds are showing signs of life.
Sam Hilgendorf:Alright. Everybody playing their role? How the team comes together? So we start thinking about aligning these different types of skills and abilities and and areas of strength and tie that back to the change model. So let's think about this as a cycle.
Sam Hilgendorf:And we're going to start with initiation. Our i's are our initiators. They're the ones that get people excited. Here's the vision. Here's what we're going to do.
Sam Hilgendorf:Here's the potential that all comes from it. Our s's help get that joint commitment. Like, alright. I can pull other people together. I can share some of this vision.
Sam Hilgendorf:I can get people, you know, excited as I am, and I'm getting the attention I need from my eyes that are helping me understand the questions and the whys and get me out of my comfort zone around that change. The c's jump into the planning stages. This is where they are gonna shine the most. You know, give them the project plans. Again, got the got the vision, got a bunch of people around it.
Sam Hilgendorf:Let's get the details details out so we know that the the change may be successful. And then finally, our d's are the executors. They're gonna be the ones pulling the trigger. In any of these individuals alone, you're gonna have problems in that change model. But if you've got all four of these areas covered with from a team building perspective, then you're setting yourself up for success.
Sam Hilgendorf:And, you know, we're all a combination of these things. You know, nobody's a single d. Nobody's single I. So as you can think about those team building aspects. Well, where where is my s gonna come from?
Sam Hilgendorf:If I've got, you know, a team of 10, who's my strongest s? Do I make sure that they're part of that that team? Let's say I've got a a really strong d I, so maybe I don't need as much of one or the other there, but I need to focus more time on the the c's and s's. This is where, again, that putting those project teams together can set up that change for for success. Alright.
Sam Hilgendorf:So last little clip. Because even if you do all of those things, now it's never perfect.
TV Clip:Change isn't about trying to be perfect. Perfection sucks. Perfect is boring. I mean except Shawshank. That's not boring.
TV Clip:Yeah, mean, they're perfect films.
TV Clip:Definitely. Back to
TV Clip:the Future. Jaws.
TV Clip:Jaws. I would say Trent's hair is perfect.
TV Clip:Oh, good.
TV Clip:Thank you. Not at all boring. True.
TV Clip:Attributes, Grace Kelly's eyes. The other side of the pillow.
Sam Hilgendorf:Oh. That is absolutely perfect.
TV Clip:There are perfect analogies. Jack and potato, cheese, and beans. Oh, That sounds perfectly yummy. And Purple Foods and the Spaghetti Bolognese. Billy Jones, the
TV Clip:Stranger album.
TV Clip:Yep. No. That's perfect. Yes. They are perfect works of art.
TV Clip:Their perfection is all around us, everywhere we look. The mighty redwoods. No. I was talking about perfection in people. No.
TV Clip:Sure. Human beings never gonna be perfect, Roy. The best we can do is to keep asking for help and accepting it when you can. If you keep on doing that, you'll always be moving towards better.
TV Clip:Add that right there to our list of perfect stuff. Ding, ding, ding.
TV Clip:Right. Thank you. So
Sam Hilgendorf:regardless of what we do, again, it's never about being perfect. We align these different styles. You you get these folks working together. You get them helping each other, you know, using their strengths to support their team members that don't have that strength. And all of a sudden, you you know, as Kathy went through, you cut that trough, you shorten it up, you bring it faster, you get to the the value at a quicker pace when you've got all those styles together.
Sam Hilgendorf:So with that, that's it. I don't know if there's 's any questions or anything. Otherwise, we'll probably right about on time, hopefully.
TV Clip:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Should we all clap at the same time?
Sam Hilgendorf:There we go.
TV Clip:I'm a high s. I'm a supporter, so
Sam Hilgendorf:you can still Yeah.
TV Clip:I'm curious about your high s First off,
TV Clip:this is one of
TV Clip:the better presentations I've seen in a while, so thank you. I'm curious your comment about why we don't see as many high s's in IT space. And why why do you think that is and what can we do to bring more of them into it? Because otherwise we've got lopsided projects?
Sam Hilgendorf:Mhmm. So I I think at at the yeah. This is this is me just Yeah. Thinking out loud. Because I haven't actually spent that much time thinking about it.
Sam Hilgendorf:I would say I think IT generally leans towards more of the task oriented people than the emotionally emotional side of people. So the you know, if go back to that kind of picture. So, yeah, generally, I mean, you think about like middle school, grade school, high school, and you start figuring out kind of what you want to do with with your life and things like that. I think that's probably where that some of that starts starts developing right there is, hey, I like doing tasks. I like getting things done.
Sam Hilgendorf:You know, I can hop on whether I'm learning code, Python or something like that. I can build something. I can get into a little bit more of that task oriented side. So I'd say that's probably the first piece of the mix. Yeah, don't think the outgoing and the reserved have as much to do it.
Sam Hilgendorf:I mean we definitely see IT people that are both sides of that spectrum. But I don't see as many, again, on the people oriented side as the task oriented side. You can just kind of watch over the years. Go ahead, Kathy.
TV Clip:And while I think more of the s's might come in the customer service perspectives in the support areas. Yes. Yep. That's where you see more of the s's. Now the big problem with that in some cases though is that because so many technologists are on the d and the c side, they often don't want to listen to the s people, and the s people are the ones that are really thinking about what the users need and want.
TV Clip:So something to pay attention to.
Sam Hilgendorf:And I'd agree with that. Mean, I think back to my my engineering days and things like that. And I mean, if you can't tell, I'm all ID, like extreme on on both both levels. So, yeah, I'd have no time for the s's as an individual contributor. I'm like, they're not they're not helping getting this done.
Sam Hilgendorf:I just need to get the freaking done. So so do I think there's a there is a nature of that. And, they're the ones that will if if they're if they get a lot of that, they're gonna shrink and and once again disappear. So I do think your your d's and your c's can absolutely have that effect. So even if you have a stronger s, they may not be as impactful if there isn't the balance and they don't have that support, you know, pushing back against the the d's and the c's that will overwhelm them.
Sam Hilgendorf:Any other questions or thoughts? All right. No, thank you, Doug. All right.
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